Curse

Luggage · May 30, 2005, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

If you take out the runes, there would be complete chaos. Currently, almost all top builds are based off superior runes in some way or another. It's fine as it is, so unless you can justify this, don't argue.

I dont argue, I try to come up with alternative compromises - especially since AirOnG says that balanced pvp is the only thing PvPers really want.

Shadow_Avenger · May 30, 2005, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Anet are in danger of getting too soft, my first chr took 70+ hours.
No I try again, ok I know the quests, so i go quickly to lvl 6 and then to post, I get there and the material trader now sells all items including rare crafting materials..
PvP / PvE, its fairly ironic, as you would still have to farm, you would still have to play the PvE to get a guild house to actually compete in GvG.
Unlock all skills, it would only benifit those who have actually completed the game and gain access to guild house.
And yes this would happen. ALL Noobs would hanker to join Guilds, skip the PvE completely and just PvP, then claim it was fixed as the more experiance players kick there butts.
The only people complaining about the UAS are the beta testers as they have spent months playing through the main areas already, and lets face it they would be the only ones to miss it. What you don't have you don't miss. The rest either dont give a monkies or are just jumping on the band wagon.
My characters don't have all skills, but have more than enough. Most of the elite skills I have found are slightly more powerful versions of existing skills. (ranger class)(monk class)(mesmer class)

AirOnG · May 30, 2005, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_Avenger

The only people complaining about the UAS are the beta testers as they have spent months playing through the main areas already, and lets face it they would be the only ones to miss it

You have to understand it is not playing through the missions or main campaign that is the problem. The main problem is being required to go into the exact same area in an extremely repetitive monotone fashion to kill mobs over and over for hundreds of solid ingame hours in order to compete on a level playing field. Another problem is being arbitrarily required to repetitively play through the campaign more than once in order to have skills from all classes.

Xellos · May 30, 2005, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luggage

I dont argue, I try to come up with alternative compromises - especially since AirOnG says that balanced pvp is the only thing PvPers really want.

Good try, but runes are currently so integrated into the game, it'll take a diablo 2 1.10 patch to fix it up. Let's just stick with it shall we? If superiors are automatically unlocked, it's still a fair playing ground.

Kodoku · May 30, 2005, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

That's how it should be. It should be entirely based on player skill and not because the other player had an unfair advantage.

Define "unfair advantage," please. Oh, you mean "earned"?

Kodoku · May 30, 2005, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

Another problem is being arbitrarily required to repetitively play through the campaign more than once in order to have skills from all classes.

Not true. Unlocking of secondary classes in the Crystal Desert allows a single character to have every single skill in the game. Granted it might take time, but there's no reason to play the campaign repeatedly.

Quintus · May 30, 2005, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodoku

Not true. Unlocking of secondary classes in the Crystal Desert allows a single character to have every single skill in the game. Granted it might take time, but there's no reason to play the campaign repeatedly.

This would be true if skill points weren't so rare. As of now, it is more time efficient to start the campaign over than to kill the same mobs over and over to get less skill points.

AirOnG · May 30, 2005, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Koduku, for each additional skill point you earn due to leveling past 20, it takes more and more experience to level. There are diminishing returns for continuously leveling. That's why you have to create more than one PvE character. There are approximately 75 skills per class. You'll need 300 skill points which is almost impossible to obtain in any reasonable timeframe to switch your secondary 4 times and get all the skills for those classes (assuming you don't need your skillpoints for your original class selection).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodoku

Define "unfair advantage," please. Oh, you mean "earned"?

I suppose it's a matter of perspective. Most PvPers do not view farming for hundreds of hours for the ability to play on a level playing field a rewarding experience and often feel it's a completely arbitrary and unnecessary gameplay mechanic. An unfair advantage to a PvPer is an artificial game rule that makes one side have a superficial advantage over another side. In this case, the superficial advantage is one side having more health or runes or skills just by virtue of having done an unchallenging and unskilled timesink.

In order to really be "earned" to a PvPer, the reward should be something that actually requires skill like position in a ladder or tournament. To obtain runes and skills in this game, all that is required is purely time and very little skill.

Kodoku · May 30, 2005, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

PVE players in purist form when casual are not going to rush through the game, therefore they cannot see the economy, and if they are very easily pleased, they cannot be very picky, and cannot see the flaws that other people with higher standards can see. From how the story is expressed throughout the game, to the replayability, to the skill system and distrubution, all these things I know from the back of my hand because I was forced to play through it. Don't get me wrong, I love both aspects of the game. PVP, PVE, it doesn't matter to me. But I fail to see how someone who hasn't even been "taken out of the matrix" can qualify over me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that all PvP players are by their very nature unobservant and possess poor standards? These assumptions are nothing but unfounded and insulting.

I enjoy the PvP system in the game, though I'm largely a "casual PvE player." MMORPGs are typically disappointing in the PvP realm what with a hefty reliance on attributes and randomly generated numbers to decide who lives and dies. Guild Wars so far has seemed to be one of the best at reaching a balanced PvP playing field, but a UAS option will do nothing but hurt that balance.

What do you mean by "taken out of the matrix"?

Kodoku · May 30, 2005, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

Koduku, for each additional skill point you earn due to leveling past 20, it takes more and more experience to level. There are diminishing returns for continuously leveling. That's why you have to create more than one PvE character. There are approximately 75 skills per class. You'll need 300 skill points which is almost impossible to obtain in any reasonable timeframe to switch your secondary 4 times and get all the skills for those classes (assuming you don't need your skillpoints for your original class selection).

Do you have the numbers to substantiate this? It took me about the same amount of experience to get five more skill points after level 20 than it took me to go from 19 to 20. First I've ever heard of diminishing returns on skill points.

AirOnG · May 30, 2005, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Let me note that an UAS system is far better for a casual pvp player since he does not have to invest massive amounts of time in a timesink and can actually simply compete on a level playing field that is based on skill.

Kodoku, here:
http://www.gwonline.net/page.php?p=137
There are diminishing returns to obtain skill points through leveling. Thus, you cannot realistically obtain all skills through just one PvE character. It's far more practical to create additional PvE characters (and thus be forced to repeat the campaign).

Kodoku, your lack of understanding that there were diminishing returns kinds of proves his point that PvPers have a far more intimate understanding of the PvE game mechanics than casual PvEers.

Rahne Sinclaire · May 30, 2005, 10:33 PM // 22:33

It doesn't really seem right... it would kind of make it be a completely different type of game, in my opinion. But...
If it didn't affect me in any way, shape, or form, I can't say I'd have any reason to argue.

Kodoku · May 30, 2005, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

I suppose it's a matter of perspective. Most PvPers do not view farming for hundreds of hours for the ability to play on a level playing field a rewarding experience and often feel it's a completely arbitrary and unnecessary gameplay mechanic. An unfair advantage to a PvPer is an artificial game rule that makes one side have a superficial advantage over another side. In this case, the superficial advantage is one side having more health or runes or skills just by virtue of having done an unchallenging and unskilled timesink.

In order to really be "earned" to a PvPer, the reward should be something that actually requires skill like position in a ladder or tournament. To obtain runes and skills in this game, all that is required is purely time and very little skill.

This reply is going to get me flamed, but I'll go ahead with it. Why are PvPers so attracted to massively multiplayer online ROLEPLAYING games? Yes, there is by definition a grind built into this genre. It's the nature of the beast. Aside from an immersive plotline, RPGs (and MMORPGs) involve lots of character development (okay, so plot is sometimes thin in MMOs).

I've never been very satisfied with the PvP content of MMORPGs, though Guild Wars has risen above my expectations. These games rely heavily on statistics and random die rolls to determine the outcomes of battles. There's a lot of luck going along with the skill in PvP battles in this genre. Guild Wars has less randomness, but it's still a part of the system.

If you want purely skill-based PvP, the FPS and RTS genres are much more skill-based. MMORPG PvP is more analogous to two players duking it out in a pencil-and-paper Dungeons and Dragons game. Yes, Guild Wars has reduced the randomness factor, but not elminated it.

Of course, in FPS games lag does insert an element of luck.

If you want skill-based PvP without putting any work whatsoever into it, this really isn't the right genre for you.

Man, that last line is going to get me flamed.

Kodoku · May 30, 2005, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

Kodoku, your lack of understanding that there were diminishing returns kinds of proves his point that PvPers have a far more intimate understanding of the PvE game mechanics than casual PvEers.

Proves the point? So a single example demonstrates the presence of a much larger truth? I'm a game mechanics junkie, my friend. Understanding of the game mechanics has nothing to do with one's PvP or PvE standing. It's really a question of personality.

AirOnG · May 30, 2005, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Blah, I edit too much as new posts come to my attention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodoku

I enjoy the PvP system in the game, though I'm largely a "casual PvE player." MMORPGs are typically disappointing in the PvP realm what with a hefty reliance on attributes and randomly generated numbers to decide who lives and dies.

The PvP in this game is not disappointing to many and is the main reason why PvPers have bought this game. Many did not buy the game for the PvE and were misled by the advertisements and promises. For example, on the box that I purchased the game with:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild Wars Box

Prove Your Worth in a World Where Skill Decides
Your Skill Will Be Your Legend
You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate. Whether battling horrific monsters or competing at the highest levels of tournament play, it will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat.

There was a common meme in the advertisement of breaking the traditional MMORPG mold and eliminating the grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodoku

Guild Wars so far has seemed to be one of the best at reaching a balanced PvP playing field, but a UAS option will do nothing but hurt that balance.

This is a serious logical fallacy. It does not logically make sense. It is a non-sequitur that has been repeated over and over. How is it not a balanced PvP playing field if everyone has access to the exact same abilities and equipment? How would making everyone be on a level playing field hurt PvP balance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodoku

Understanding of the game mechanics has nothing to do with one's PvP or PvE standing.

There's a correlation, however. I do realize the plural of anecdote is not data. I was using the example as an illustration.

Rahne Sinclaire · May 30, 2005, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Also, as I believe was mentioned earlier in the thread, I'd also be in favor of a way for PvPers to unlock skills and runes and the like without actually having to go through the PvE portion of the game.
I don't know how it would be done, exactly, but... it could work.

Khrysyl · May 30, 2005, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

Let me note that an UAS system is far better for a casual pvp player since he does not have to invest massive amounts of time in a timesink and can actually simply compete on a level playing field that is based on skill.

Kodoku, here:
http://www.gwonline.net/page.php?p=137
There are diminishing returns to obtain skill points through leveling. Thus, you cannot realistically obtain all skills through just one PvE character. It's far more practical to create additional PvE characters (and thus be forced to repeat the campaign).

Kodoku, your lack of understanding that there were diminishing returns kinds of proves his point that PvPers have a far more intimate understanding of the PvE game mechanics than casual PvEers.

For a casual pure PvP player yes, I agree with you. But NOT for a casual (or hardcore for that matter) PvE/PvP player (one who is interested in both) and since these are the players that are a majority in this game, and it seems obvious to me, the population that A.Net has made this game for, then UAS is an awful alternative.

And since A.Net (Gaile) has specifically stated that UAS was a tool to use during beta test and was never intended for the final game, continually harping on the idea of including one in a future release. Sorry, but it ain't (thankfully) gonna happen.

AirOnG · May 30, 2005, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khrysyl

But NOT for a casual (or hardcore for that matter) PvE/PvP player (one who is interested in both) and since these are the players that are a majority in this game, and it seems obvious to me, the population that A.Net has made this game for, then UAS is an awful alternative.

Prove that the majority of people in this game (over 50% since that is the definition of majority) are hardcore PvE/PvP players. You can't and thus you are relying on a presumption that you can't even prove. Based on this thread alone, I would venture to say there are more PvPers who do not want the grind than "hardcore" PvPer/PvEers who want the grind. Casual PvEers seem to make a significant portion as well.

A.net however has constantly thrust up their elimination of grind and how the PvP would be based on skill rather than hours played. This is currently and objectively not the case since the amount you grind has a significant impact on your PvP performance.

Loviatar · May 30, 2005, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

Prove that the majority of people in this game (over 50% since that is the definition of majority) are hardcore PvE/PvP players. .

if you read her post it was casual (or hardcore)

and that covers much more than 50 %

Kodoku · May 30, 2005, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

This is a serious logical fallacy. It does not logically make sense. It is a non-sequitur that has been repeated over and over. How is it not a balanced PvP playing field if everyone has access to the exact same abilities and equipment? How would making everyone be on a level playing field hurt PvP balance?

My misconception was that this was PvP in an MMORPG setting. I realize now that this assumption was not true. In ways, Guild Wars is an MMORPG in a PvP setting, though the grind element has not been removed, only lessened. Levels do not play into hit-vs.-defense calculations. Level-20s have no more energy (save elemenalists) than level-3s. Only health and attribute points (and thus the effectiveness of skills and weapons) are level-based. Perhaps ArenaNet has reached a pretty good balance of PvP and RPG conventions.

Assumptions have been made on both sides of the playing field. You mentioned the misleading skill motif in the advertising and on the game box itself. The balance argument in the context of an MMORPG setting is not a non sequitur in that in an MMORPG, character skills, equipment, et al must be acquired through work over time. Thus I am inclined to side with the propositioin that skills, runes, and weapon mods be earnable through PvP accomplishments - though only for PvP-only characters.